Honestly though like its fucking offensive how people still try to claim that “hard work” is what determines your economic fate. Like its not like its a secret that the most back-breaking labor is categorically not the most high-paying, really its almost the precise opposite. People bent over for 12 hours a day, in the sun, picking vegetables are literally the lowest paid people in the country. No one can claim ignorance of that. So shut your God damn mouth and find another justification already, stop being insulting to the people who bust ass and break a sweat so millionaires can spend their work days in a chair, in an air conditioned room, two basic luxuries that plenty take for granted.

theforestpassage:

“Capitalism is oppressive because I only get 3-4 hours of free time a day”

Ok, here’s a thought, and bear with me here: increase your value on the market place so you earn more $/hr so you can choose to work less hours.

And don’t tell me you can’t do that because you can learn practically anything online for free or from library books.

A primer on poverty, free time, and choosing to earn more money.

1. The United States is second only to Nicaragua in blaming poor people for their poverty. So, congratulations you libertarian you! You’re expressing the call of the fucking herd, participating in a dumb chorus, and are not representing the light of social, practical, intellectual difference. Fully one quarter of your herd feel poor people are responsible for the own poverty in spite of the overwhelming facts pointing out the opposite. (x, y) One of the reasons for such an exaggerated fiction is that US and UK people work some of the longest and strangest hours in the world. That’s all of us, not just the poor. (x) Our fictions are bound to be more exaggerated.

2. Owners and bosses make so much more money than the average employee that the exaggeration of unearned ambition (see Adam Smith, Part I, Chapter II, here) that’s been a problem in capitalism since its inception is much more exaggerated and problematic today. It’s understandable why you want to imply poor people don’t want to work, although the opposite is the solid truth. Capitalist society values work more than equality, and so even the poorest and unhappiest people are willing to work long and strange hours. We have to address how the division of labor works to promote a sense of fairness about income inequality.

3. We use vague words like inequality to address fairness. Fact is, we can address value very specifically. Workers don’t earn anything approaching appropriate compensation for the hours they work, while owners and employers are earning much more than they’re actually worth, in spite of working similar hours. (x, y) The fact is that, for some reason, we permit some people to say they are worth more than others. Likely, this is a result of the form cooperation between employee and employer takes in capitalism, where employees sacrifice earnings for a number of promises, such as safety at work, access to forms of insurance, compensation for injury, and provided tools and resources. I know from experience that Americans believe bosses pay out of pocket for these “materials”, but the truth is labor produces them. Without labor, we’d have zero wealth creation. That’s a fact. It makes sense to complain. If we’re not going to be compensated more fairly, then we should get more time away from work.

4. I’ve addressed in another post how talking about “wealth” instead of “value” helps generate momentum for the fiction that the long hours rich employers work and the amount of wealth capitalists possess prove they’ve earned their status and wealth. It’s not true. It never has been true. Simple analysis will illustrate that. Just look at the data gathered about work. It’s easily accessible these days. On the other hand, one needs analysis plus social engineering to be able to argue wealthy people have earned their wealth while poor people haven’t earned it yet. Your hero von Mises had to compose a social theory of human action that insists it’s best to think of people as consumers and business owners rather then employee and employer for just this reason. It’s easy to talk about choices, freedom, and liberty when we’re addressing bosses and consumers and wildly wealthy elites. To be antisocialist in a capitalist society insists one must agree about a few conditions before making any arguments about social equality and identity. The theory comes not from metaphysics but from social engineering; in other words, it’s propaganda.

5. But facts are facts. In 2012, for example, the majority of able-bodied poor worked. (x) Year in and year out, the poor work. And they work hard–multiple jobs, night and day, with little sleep. Look we all know that money earned is worth more to the poor than the rich; another way to put it, poverty is expensive. Spending to sustain healthy life takes all of our money. Wealthy people can afford to spend money on investments and entertainment. They tend to lead happier lives for obvious reasons. (x) The link shows that the wealthiest people in the US receive much more of their income from wages than the poorest people do.

6. Something in the assumed rationale in your claim above tells me you think that people earn more money because they have some skills associated with their social status and pay that poorer people lack. That’s simply not the case. We know that a college degree, for example, is worth less if the student and future employee is born poor and worth more if born wealthy. (x)

We can say, without a doubt, that spending what little leisure time we have away from work “bettering” (part of the capitalist myth about social mobility is that we can choose to become better) ourselves is not necessarily going to do anything to increase our value in the workplace.

7. I’m going to give you a little wake up call for your notion that people can choose to become more wealthy. It’s certainly true in the past that much of the wealth in the US was earned rather than inherited. And this only makes sense because much of the wealth (money and value) has been only recently created via economic booms (and recoveries from busts). There wasn’t massive accumulations of wealth to bequeath in the recent past. (Caveat: for a very small, minority of Americans there always has been great wealth and that was inherited. We’re not addressing them.)

We know wealth is an accumulation of excess income over expenditures over time. Wealth inequality is on the rise, all over the world. Thus, we know that these days, and even more so in the days to come, as wealth inequality rises, more people will begin inheriting wealth rather than earning it.

Choosing to be better becomes even more of a fantastic myth.

8. Finally, it’s an intellectual cop out to claim people can educate themselves for free. I’ve been teaching for close to twenty years. Much of the education that future employees exchange for better wages involves learning achieved from within institutions that engage different learning communities and wherein people can make various valuable social connections that permit them referrals, aid, cooperation, and affiliation, all of which costs a lot of money.

“Don’t you know communism has killed millions?!”

stirringwind:

stardust-rain:

southern-feminism:

DEATHS CAUSED BY CAPITALISM:

Native American Genocide, 1500s-1900s (direct killings and death from plagues; North, Central, and South Americas combined): 100 MILLION [x]

Atlantic Slave Trade, 1500s-1900s (princessbuggie helped with this one): 4 MILLION [x]

September Massacres, France, 1792: 1,200 [x]

Famines in British India, 1837-1900: at least 165 MILLION [x]

Potato Famine/Great Irish Famine, 1845-1852 (an anon helped with this one): 1 MILLION [x]

Cholera Outbreak, Industrial London, 1849: 15,000 [x]

United States Civil War, 1861-1865: at least 600,000 [x]

Building First Transcontinental Railroad, United States, 1863-1869 (princessbuggie helped with this one): at least 1,200 [x]

Belgian Occupation of the Congo, 1886-1908: 10 MILLION [x]

Spanish-American War, 1898: 17,135 [x]

United States 20th Century Coal Mining Industry: 100,000 [x]

Courriéres Mine Disaster, France, 1906: 1,549 [x]

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, 1911 (vivianvivisection helped with this one): 146 [x]

World War I, 1914-1918: 16 MILLION [x]

Building the Hoover Damn, United States, 1922-1936: 112 [x]

Shanghai Massacre of 1927: at least 5,000 presumed dead [x]

United States Intervention in Latin America, 1929-1987 (progressivefem helped with this one): 6 MILLION [x]

The White Terror, Spain, 1936-1975: at least 100,000 [x]

World War II, 1939-1945: at least 60 MILLION [x]

Benxihu Colliery Explosion, China, 1942: 1,549 [x]

Burma Railway, Thailand-Burma, 1943-1947: 106,000 [x]

Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 1945: at least 245,000 [x]

Bodo League Massacre, Korea, 1950: at least 100,000 [x]

Vietnam War, 1955-1975: 2.3 MILLION [x] [x]

Guatemalan Civil War, 1960-1996 (an anon helped with this one): 200,000 [x]

US Intervention in the Congo, 1964: 1,000 [x]

Indonesian Anti-Communist Purge, 1965-1966: at least 500,000 [x]

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, 1965-2013: 21,500 [x], 1,000 more Palestinians have been killed in 2014.

Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988: at least 315,000 [x]

Bhopal Disaster, Madhya Pradesh, 1984: 16,000+ [x]

United States Railroad Workers Killed on the Job, 1993-2002 (princessbuggie helped with this one): 1,221 [x]

Rwandan Genocide, 1994: 1 MILLION [x]

United States Deaths Attributed to Cigarette Smoking, 2000-2004: ~1.7 MILLION [x]

War in Afghanistan, 2001-present: 57,457 [x]

Darfur Genocide, 2003-present: 10,000 [x]

Iraq War, 2003-2011: 55,034 [x]

Mexican Drug War, 2006-present: at least 100,000 [x]

United States Workers Killed on the Job in 2012, as reported by OSHA: 4,628 [x]

Hunger (un-feuilly-de-papier helped with this one): 21,000 per day [x], 16,000 of them children [x], 3,000 of them children specifically in India [x].

Worldwide Occupational Deaths: 6,000 per day [x]

Poor shelter, polluted water, inadequate sanitation, often from homelessness (sideeffectsincludenausea helped with this one): 50,000 per day [x]

Occupational Asbestos Exposure: 107,000 per year [x]

International Sex Trafficking: 30,000 per year [x]

“Communist Death Toll,” according to The Black Book of Communism: 94 million

Capitalism Death Toll: 369 million (369,790,731), according only to the statistics I could get sources for. This number doesn’t even scratch the surface.

But, guess what? Tomorrow, we know for sure that capitalism will kill at least 77,000 more people.

You know what? No. Fuck this. I’m sick of clueless young Westeners undermining the deaths under communism to further their argument. My parents lived trough this shit. My grandparents lost half their families during Mao’s reign, were sent to labour camps and beaten and worked half to death and I’m sick people like you ignoring their lives in favour of some cheap argument to prop up communism.

You can argue against capitalism and I won’t say a word against it – but if your argument is based on the idea that communism is somehow the “lesser evil”, thereby completely disregarding the government-sanctioned genocide, famine, violence and oppression that actual people suffered, then you can take several fucking seats – especially if you’ve never experienced that violence, never lost family members to that violence and never seen first-hand what it drives people to.

Because you’re using statistics from over 500 years and across the globe (60 countries going by your stats) to compare to the death toll of what occurred over 50 years and in 11 countries.

95 million is an extremely all-inclusive number and it’s been debated about the historical accuracies and how broadly covers. Even so, a majority of that number is spread out to a few countries in under fifty years.

Now obviously, more than eleven countries have been communist states – but going by the ‘95 million’ statistic, most of the these numbers are split between China under Mao, USSR under Stalin and Cambodia under Khmer Rouge. The rest are rough estimates from about 262 000 to 1.1 million which were under North Korea, East Germany, Romania, Hungary, North Vietnam, Ethiopia.

Communism may have killed less, but the death toll is far more saturated. To break this down a bit. Coming second to none is China:

an estimate of 42 million died in China during the three-year famine of 1958-1961. Historians dispute over the actual number; 15 million is official government numbers but unofficial estimates vary between 23 mil. (Peng) to 46 mil. (Chen), but the closest and most recent estimate is about 45 million by Dikötter, who included deaths from suicide, militia executions and violence.

sidenote: according Yang Jisheng, who estimated 30 million dead from famine, another estimated 40 million ‘failed to be born’, making about 70 million in population loss.

This happened during 3 years. in one country.

and oh yeah, there was also another 92,000 Tibetans killed under Communist Government from Mao to current and another estimated 1.2 million died during the Cultural Revolution from labour camps, prisons, murders and executions (‘61-‘69).

Now, lets look at Russia, coming second place.

not including war casualty, 20-30 million died under Stalin from 1924-1953. Again, numbers vary – some estimates go as high 60 million.

Of those, 1.2 million were from the Great Purge of ‘36-39 (including invasion of Mongolia and purge of XinJiang because guess what, communism doesn’t magically erase a white dude’s sense of imperialism).

Then there were from gulags, deportation and ethnic cleansing (of Jews, Slavs, Romani, Poles, among others).

The rest were deaths from from famine from ‘26-’38. If we add deaths that occurred during deportations, POW died under care, and death in other Soviet countries during Stalin’s rule, then the average number gets closer to 30 mil.

Not to forget:

2.2 million were killed in Cambodia during Khmer Rouge’s rule, 1975-1979. Half were from famine/disease, half were executions.

Red Terror in Ethiopia: 30,000-500,000 (’77-’78)

Collectivisation in Romania: 60,000 to 190,000 (’47-’64)

North Vietnam land reform: ca 172,000 (some estimates btw 200,000 to 500,000) (’53-’56)

North Korea has no an ‘official’ number, but calculated deaths from 1948-87 were about 1 million. 240,000 to 420,000 people died as a result of the 1990s famine.

The death toll during Mao’s Famine during the Great Leap Forward would be an estimated 52,000 per day, going by 40 million death-toll estimates – and that from one country alone.

During Stalin’s Great Purge, executions were calculated to be 1000 per day.

And you want to compare this to a world-wide conglomerate?

And before you put words in my mouth, I’m not saying a damn thing in defense of capitalism.

You can denounce capitalism all you want, but you need take several steps back and reconsider if you’re going to do so on the backs of people who actually suffered through an oppressive, abusive, totalitarian regime by devaluing their suffering and using it as an example of how communism is the “"lesser evil”“ – especially if you have never lived through it, lost family members or felt the fear of such a regime.

Don’t attribute the death toll to Stalinism or Maoism or say it was ‘wrong form’ of communism. You do not get to cherry pick your flavour of totalitarianism so that it suits your social stance. You do not get to undermine, appropriate and white-wash the human atrocities and genocides committed in the name of communism so that you can cover up the ugly underbelly of how these regimes will work, has worked and is currently working.

These are not statistics for you to brush under the mat so that communism can seem ‘less evil’. People who deported, sent to labour camps, starved to death, sold out by the colleagues, murdered by their students are not collateral fucking damage for make-believe, Westernised idealistic communism.

(and another side-note: the Anti-communism cleansing in Indonesia had fuck-all to do with capitalism and everything to do with anti-Chinese sentiments. These were all tied in with the historical socio-politics at the time, such as the foreign policy of CCCP, the relationship and influence of the Chinese government under Zhou Enlai , and the state of Indonesia’s militarisation under Sukarno that was helped by China. To use their complicated and brutal political and social history that literally nothing to do with Western capitalism and everything to do with East Asian international relations to back your argument is really fucking imperialist.)

Thank you for the take-down.

I would’ve got an aneurysm trying to elaborate on everything wrong with OP’s post and how it’s stuffed with smug Western imperialism and US-centrism. (So now, all the deaths in Europe and Asia in WW2 were just about ‘capitalism’? Not, I dunno, some ideas of German and Japanese ethnic and racial superiority? Unless you want to tell me racial and ethnic tensions that long-predated capitalism somehow were caused by capitalism? Fuck that bullshit.)

And slavery as a system has been present in human societies long before capitalism was even a twinkle in anyone’s eye. It can exist in a non-capitalist society. And let’s just say there were plenty of forced labour camps and gulags in Communist regimes. I mean, if I recall correctly, didn’t the ostensibly “”Capitalist”” World War 2 in Europe begin when Nazi Germany AND the Soviet Union invaded Poland? Maybe because imperialism isn’t tied strictly to a capitalist society though the two can reinforce each other. Or no empires would have existed before the modern era.

TBH I’ve no more patience for people who love glossing over the complexities of the violence suffered by our families just to fit their agenda, especially when these people are trying to appear Oh So Progressive but it’s just Western imperialism on steroids.